Monday 8 October 2012

"In the earliest Gospel Mark, Jesus doesnt even claim to be God" Thats only in later Gospels and must have been added in"

  I was very surprised when I first heard this argument from an atheist friend in a coffee shop.  Mainly because I had been hearing it from Jehovah's Witnesses for many years before that.  I really have nothing bad to say about JW's other than their doctrine.  One of the reasons I am a Christian today is because a group of four JW's met with me weekely for many months to discuss issues of God.  I still have JW's over to the house every couple of months, they are always welcome here. 

  So I am in the coffee shop with me friend and the topic of Jesus being God comes up and I hear that in Mark, that Jesus never claimed to be God.  So maybe he was just a good man who after he died people made it up that he claimed to be God.

   Frankly this objection is quite silly, the evidence in overwhelming for Jesus's personal claims.  First I asked my friend if he had actually read the Gospel of Mark and the answer was no.  But that this was a popular claim on the Internet.  With this said, I then asked "why do you think Jesus was crucified?"  To which the answer was "I'm not sure"  so then I decided to speak about two points, the same two points I always talk about with my JW friends. 

   First we read Mark 4:35 - 5:13

35 That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37 A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?”
39 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.
40 He said to his disciples, “Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?”
41 They were terrified and asked each other, “Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!”

They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.
When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!”
Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”
“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.
11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.



Thank you for reading all that first :)

OK so what we have here first is Jesus and the disciples are in the boat, and a storm comes and they are afraid until Jesus tells the wind and the waves "Quiet, be still" and then Mark makes it clear that the disciples were more scared of Jesus after that than they were of the storm.  Keep in mind here the context.  We are reading a Jewish narrative.  Why were they terrified?  Because in their context, who alone tells the seas what to do?

The next story we have which is connected, because when Mark was written there was not chapters and verses, they were added later.  The very next story we get is Jesus encountering a very scary demon possessed man.  Jesus asks the impure spirit "what is your name?"  to which the spirit replies "Legion"  now what would the name Legion bring up in the minds of the first listeners within the Jewish culture?  They would have thought about the Roman Legion which was a basic Roman army unit comprised of up to 5000 soljers.  The Romans were oppressing the Jews at the time and they longed for freedom from the Romans.  So Jesus then casts Legion into the pigs and they run into the water and drown.

So ask yourself this question.  In the Jewish narrative, who alone controls the waters and then drowns Israels enemies in it?  This is a direct reflection of the Exodus story where God parts the red sea and then drowns Pharaoh's armies in it.

Second I will read Mark 14:60-64

60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

So here Jesus is before the Sanhedrin and is brought up on charges.  People are giving false testimony so the high priest just straight up asks Jesus if he is the son of God.  Jesus replies powerfully and says that he is indeed the Son of Man, and the high priest tears his robes because of the perceived blasphemy. 

So that is my usual two talking points when it comes to this topic.  Since the objection is bible based you have to actually read the bible for the answer.  So here I just use two points so not to overwhelm people, but if they are interested then I would go further. 

I  reviewed this with my friend, and he said "alright, fine" and that was the end of that.  I still go deeper on this though with my JW friends, my only bit of advice with JW's is that you be willing to use their bible.
It is a pretty bad translation, but you can do it :)

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